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there's no doubt speaking up takes

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courage but we want to be your voice

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when you really need one and we back the

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australians who are doing it tough we're

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bold

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we're credible we're australia's most

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fearless straight talkers there is a

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rawness and an authenticity to sky that

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i think you'll struggle to find anywhere

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that is a promo piece for sky news

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australia which no matter what you think

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about rupert murdoch sky news you gotta

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acknowledge that sky news australia is

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mainstream

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and the reason i bring it up on this

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show is because they were in the news

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recently because they had their videos

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banned from youtube because

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they dared to challenge the idea that

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masks are effective for kovid19 which i

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could go on and on about and i'm kind of

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tempted to it's this interview i have

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coming up with sarah and jack gorman

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they have a new book called denying to

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the grave why we ignore the facts that

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will save us and you know so right off

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the bat this is like so classic

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skeptical this is like 10 years ago

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skeptico because these people are super

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smart qualified sarah you know

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undergraduate degree harvard phd

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columbia

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jack has an even more impressive

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background md columbia psychiatry

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multiple fellowships taught at the med

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school there i mean these are very very

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intelligent people and their book is

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atrocious

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when it comes to the science that we've

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talked about for so many years on this

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show it completely fails from jump

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street it fails from the fundamentals

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science is a method it's not a position

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statement so

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again i could go on and on and i can't

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do a lot of this with this interview

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debate that i know makes a lot of people

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uncomfortable and for those of you who

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it doesn't make uncomfortable let me

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tell you you are in the minority when i

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do interviews like this

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most people really do not like this kind

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of dialogue but i gotta say where else

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are you gonna hear this kind of stuff

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where else is this silliness going to be

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exposed so speaking of silliness here's

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where i start which seems obvious to me

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to anyone who cares about science

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and that is

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should we limit scientific debate should

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we feel okay that scientific debate is

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being banned being censored here's a

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clip

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very disturbing to me when people talk

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about information being dangerous

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and opinions being dangerous why we

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would ever want to limit a scientific

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discussion because we don't agree with

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somebody i find that very troubling i i

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do think that anybody who spreads

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information about

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the medical technology that people need

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in order to survive

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that's not true

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and usually it's intentionally not true

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i don't think that they should be

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allowed to have any platform they want

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sarah who would determine what's not

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true isn't that the job of science

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yeah well science has already determined

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certain things about vaccines that

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they're safe and effective certain

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vaccines that they're saying science

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really determine anything i think in

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your book you say there's nothing is 100

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true science isn't about proof right

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it's about evidence it's about

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statistically certainty one way or

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another right

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you know first of all i think we should

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just one one thing is we're not really

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talking about the first amendment here

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because the first amendment only applies

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to government censorship the idea that

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youtube facebook and twitter are not

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part of what we have all assumed

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throughout our lives is this free press

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can't be sustained

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so sarah is obviously lost in the woods

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here but as the discussion goes on her

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dad jack tries to save her when we wind

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up talking about whether masks are

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effective and here comes the really

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interesting part

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overall the use of masks in community

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did not reduce the risk of influenza

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over and over again these studies have

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been replicated and they always generate

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a null result and then finally we had

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the

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and reveals in an email that he never

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made public that he knew all along that

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in terms of public health not in terms

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of laboratory not whether you can make a

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mask work in a laboratory setting which

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we all understand you can but whether

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from a public health standpoint they

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work

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he comes out and says yeah i know they

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never worked i still think masks work

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obviously and probably sarah does too i

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don't have the data

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at the tip of my fingers the way you

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just did which was really great that you

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had that there so i'm not going to be

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able to engage in a

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informed conversation about it

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but no one is suppressing either side

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right

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i got to say in my book

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mass work you get to say your maths

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don't work

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public sees both sides oh no that's

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suppressed on youtube you can't say that

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or you're banned

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you can't say masks don't work on

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youtube that's that's correct

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so here it is here's the payoff here's

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the part i think is particularly

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interesting

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jack super smart guy md

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expert in public health policy

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expert in this interface between science

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and public health policy

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genuinely does not know that youtube

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videos are banned

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and i don't even completely fault him

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for this

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this is where

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conspiracy

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and the kind of material that i've

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really engaged in the last few years

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this is why it's so important

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one more clip from the interview that's

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coming up

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what else you got for us today

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i tell you one thing i got you wrote on

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conspiracy theory we think it's

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reasonable to say

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even without any data to support it

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that most people have never been part of

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a conspiracy or even known a person who

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has

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and the thing that struck me is

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man first of all i grew up in chicago

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where right i don't know how it is in

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new york but you don't get anything done

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without paying somebody off influencing

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somebody and everything is a frequency

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right

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research associate at university arizona

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right for and i left because i thought

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you know the phd process and that whole

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thing was

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very political quote-unquote uh which is

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also conspiratorial and then i got into

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business and i had a business and built

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my business up sold it to uh

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a nasdaq company everything about that

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everything about business everything

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about large uh

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financial transactions is holly is a

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conspiracy but then the first one you

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use is an example of a conspiracy and my

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audience will love this a conspiracy was

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behind the assassination of president

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lincoln

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but not president kennedy and again

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since we'll wrap this up

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but

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you guys need to google

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united states house select committee on

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assassinations

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and then add conspiracy or sound data i

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mean that is the finding of

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that committee is that it was a

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conspiracy

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wow i guess as you can tell i'm pretty

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worked up but it is so so skeptical so

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anyways this is a dialogue that i'm glad

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we had i'm sure it's going to make a lot

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of people uncomfortable and i'm sure it

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made our guests a little bit

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uncomfortable but

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man you got to do your work if you're

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going to come on the show here's my

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interview with sarah and jack gorman

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welcome to skeptica where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics i'm your host alex karis

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and today

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well we have something special because

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intelligent science driven dialogues

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with people who disagree are difficult

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and they're not only difficult to have

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these kind of discussions but they're

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even difficult to arrange him i can tell

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you i can't tell you how many i've tried

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to do and it's really hard to get

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authors to come on if they have any

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sense that the other party isn't going

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to agree with them so when holly who is

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the pr rep from oxford university press

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originally

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reached out to me and said hey would you

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like to do this

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i was like absolutely just make sure

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they're down with it so

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i was delighted and surprised so i think

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this is good it's an opportunity again

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to have these kind of dialogues that are

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can be difficult to have but i think can

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be important too so

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our guests today are

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super bright super qualified dr sarah

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gorman and dr jack gorman join us today

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why don't we start by

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talking a little bit about your

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backgrounds first of all this is the

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names are the same we're just chatting a

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second ago we have a father-daughter

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writing team here which is

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quite cool and i was just saying i think

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i'd love to do that someday with my

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daughters it's a testament to a family

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that can

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hang together i tell you if you can

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write a book together and edit it

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together then

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there's a strong relationship there that

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really needs to be uh celebrated so

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let's start maybe sarah start with you

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tell us a little bit about your very

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impressive background tell folks about

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your background who you are and how you

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came to write the book

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sure so

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hi thank you so much for having us today

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it's great to be here

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um i

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my background is mostly in in public

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health and sort of the intersection of

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psychology and public health

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i have a phd from harvard and a master's

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of public health from columbia

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and i've spent many years writing and

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thinking about

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that intersection between these two

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fields is specifically how people make

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health decisions and why they make the

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decisions they do and why sometimes

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those

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decisions are not consistent with the

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advice they may get from health

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professionals or

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national authorities on health etc

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and i came to write the book because i

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was getting more and more interested

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and actually frustrated with the

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response that my field was having to

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people who were vaccine hesitant so

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people who were

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00:10:23,750 --> 00:10:22,000
afraid to get the vaccine usually for

285
00:10:24,710 --> 00:10:23,760
measles mumps and rubella for their

286
00:10:26,630 --> 00:10:24,720
children

287
00:10:29,670 --> 00:10:26,640
at the time the predominant fear was

288
00:10:31,350 --> 00:10:29,680
that that vaccine might cause autism

289
00:10:33,509 --> 00:10:31,360
which was not well supported in the

290
00:10:35,590 --> 00:10:33,519
literature but was a prevalent fear

291
00:10:37,190 --> 00:10:35,600
among many people

292
00:10:39,509 --> 00:10:37,200
and i was frustrated with the response

293
00:10:41,269 --> 00:10:39,519
from my field which was mostly to

294
00:10:42,630 --> 00:10:41,279
basically fight with people and provide

295
00:10:44,630 --> 00:10:42,640
them with more and more factual

296
00:10:46,470 --> 00:10:44,640
information and i really thought that

297
00:10:48,150 --> 00:10:46,480
they were missing the mark that you know

298
00:10:49,509 --> 00:10:48,160
this approach obviously didn't work and

299
00:10:51,350 --> 00:10:49,519
that they were assuming that people

300
00:10:52,710 --> 00:10:51,360
didn't just didn't have information

301
00:10:53,829 --> 00:10:52,720
which i didn't think was at the heart of

302
00:10:55,350 --> 00:10:53,839
the problem

303
00:10:57,350 --> 00:10:55,360
so i wanted to understand a little bit

304
00:11:00,150 --> 00:10:57,360
better what is the psychology that goes

305
00:11:02,790 --> 00:11:00,160
into you know coming up with a a

306
00:11:05,590 --> 00:11:02,800
decision or a fear like this about a a

307
00:11:07,829 --> 00:11:05,600
vaccine and how does that develop how

308
00:11:10,150 --> 00:11:07,839
does it become entrenched um what

309
00:11:12,389 --> 00:11:10,160
happens when it's challenged and you

310
00:11:14,310 --> 00:11:12,399
know everything along those lines and i

311
00:11:16,230 --> 00:11:14,320
can let jack talk a little bit about you

312
00:11:17,990 --> 00:11:16,240
know how he developed his interest in

313
00:11:19,910 --> 00:11:18,000
the same topic but it just so happened

314
00:11:22,790 --> 00:11:19,920
that around the same time we were

315
00:11:25,190 --> 00:11:22,800
thinking about this topics if in diff

316
00:11:27,190 --> 00:11:25,200
slightly different ways but very similar

317
00:11:29,509 --> 00:11:27,200
and realizing that there was enough here

318
00:11:31,670 --> 00:11:29,519
for a whole book project

319
00:11:32,870 --> 00:11:31,680
awesome jack you want to jump in there

320
00:11:34,550 --> 00:11:32,880
sure

321
00:11:37,350 --> 00:11:34,560
so i trained

322
00:11:39,190 --> 00:11:37,360
at clem university to be a psychiatrist

323
00:11:42,150 --> 00:11:39,200
where i went to medical school and where

324
00:11:44,150 --> 00:11:42,160
i met my wife who's a psychiatrist

325
00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:44,160
but as soon as i finished residency

326
00:11:47,430 --> 00:11:45,760
training and psychiatric right into

327
00:11:50,389 --> 00:11:47,440
research

328
00:11:51,750 --> 00:11:50,399
and spent a career of about 20 years or

329
00:11:54,310 --> 00:11:51,760
so

330
00:11:56,629 --> 00:11:54,320
researching in biological areas of

331
00:11:59,750 --> 00:11:56,639
psychiatry and neuroscience mostly at

332
00:12:04,629 --> 00:12:01,910
and

333
00:12:07,990 --> 00:12:04,639
the genesis of the book was really

334
00:12:10,389 --> 00:12:08,000
sarah's idea because sarah

335
00:12:12,870 --> 00:12:10,399
called me one day and told me about her

336
00:12:14,310 --> 00:12:12,880
ideas about vaccine hesitancy and the

337
00:12:15,910 --> 00:12:14,320
mmr and

338
00:12:17,670 --> 00:12:15,920
those kinds of things

339
00:12:19,829 --> 00:12:17,680
and it happened to be at about the same

340
00:12:23,590 --> 00:12:19,839
time i was thinking a lot

341
00:12:24,790 --> 00:12:23,600
about why people own guns

342
00:12:26,870 --> 00:12:24,800
not a

343
00:12:28,310 --> 00:12:26,880
second amendment issue but rather what

344
00:12:29,750 --> 00:12:28,320
the data show

345
00:12:31,750 --> 00:12:29,760
which is that

346
00:12:32,949 --> 00:12:31,760
uh if you own a gun most of the studies

347
00:12:34,870 --> 00:12:32,959
show

348
00:12:36,470 --> 00:12:34,880
you're more likely to be at danger of

349
00:12:38,870 --> 00:12:36,480
being harmed by that gun than to ever

350
00:12:41,350 --> 00:12:38,880
use it to protect yourself

351
00:12:43,190 --> 00:12:41,360
and yet lots of people argue that you

352
00:12:45,110 --> 00:12:43,200
need a gun at home to protect yourself

353
00:12:47,030 --> 00:12:45,120
and they own guns

354
00:12:48,069 --> 00:12:47,040
and so we started talking about all the

355
00:12:50,150 --> 00:12:48,079
different

356
00:12:53,509 --> 00:12:50,160
instances in which

357
00:12:54,310 --> 00:12:53,519
mainstream science says one thing

358
00:12:56,550 --> 00:12:54,320
and

359
00:12:59,350 --> 00:12:56,560
at least a substantial number of people

360
00:13:03,910 --> 00:12:59,360
believe something else and what is that

361
00:13:05,750 --> 00:13:03,920
disjunction between belief and science

362
00:13:07,269 --> 00:13:05,760
and that interests us a great deal

363
00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:07,279
because we realized there were a lot of

364
00:13:12,870 --> 00:13:10,480
different areas where that was the case

365
00:13:14,550 --> 00:13:12,880
we realized that we could irritate our

366
00:13:16,550 --> 00:13:14,560
liberal friends and our conservative

367
00:13:19,030 --> 00:13:16,560
friends equally because depending on

368
00:13:20,949 --> 00:13:19,040
which issue we looked at

369
00:13:21,990 --> 00:13:20,959
we would find an issue where that was

370
00:13:23,750 --> 00:13:22,000
the case

371
00:13:25,350 --> 00:13:23,760
and so that's how we decided to write

372
00:13:27,190 --> 00:13:25,360
the book together

373
00:13:29,509 --> 00:13:27,200
and then subsequently we started a

374
00:13:30,310 --> 00:13:29,519
non-profit company called critica which

375
00:13:32,310 --> 00:13:30,320
is

376
00:13:33,509 --> 00:13:32,320
intended to carry out some of these

377
00:13:36,870 --> 00:13:33,519
ideas

378
00:13:39,509 --> 00:13:36,880
very fundamental to our idea

379
00:13:41,750 --> 00:13:39,519
was the recognition that scientists

380
00:13:44,389 --> 00:13:41,760
like we are

381
00:13:46,949 --> 00:13:44,399
usually do a relatively poor job of

382
00:13:48,870 --> 00:13:46,959
explaining science to people

383
00:13:50,310 --> 00:13:48,880
and very often are arrogant and

384
00:13:53,990 --> 00:13:50,320
condescending

385
00:13:56,790 --> 00:13:54,000
to people and don't empathize with their

386
00:13:58,710 --> 00:13:56,800
goals their needs and their interests

387
00:14:01,350 --> 00:13:58,720
and so we wanted to try to explore what

388
00:14:03,990 --> 00:14:01,360
is the psychology of science denial

389
00:14:05,509 --> 00:14:04,000
and how do we overcome it

390
00:14:06,629 --> 00:14:05,519
i'd also like to say in terms of your

391
00:14:08,870 --> 00:14:06,639
program i'm very interested in

392
00:14:09,910 --> 00:14:08,880
spirituality as well i'm a religious

393
00:14:12,790 --> 00:14:09,920
person

394
00:14:14,829 --> 00:14:12,800
and i tell people always that

395
00:14:17,310 --> 00:14:14,839
when i'm in religious services i believe

396
00:14:19,389 --> 00:14:17,320
the earth is

397
00:14:22,069 --> 00:14:19,399
571 almost

398
00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:22,079
572 years old and when i'm in the

399
00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:24,000
laboratory i believe

400
00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:27,040
the world is 13.5 billion years

401
00:14:30,550 --> 00:14:28,880
old and i have no trouble with those two

402
00:14:31,829 --> 00:14:30,560
beliefs

403
00:14:35,269 --> 00:14:31,839
well we'll get

404
00:14:37,350 --> 00:14:35,279
that might actually be another point of

405
00:14:38,949 --> 00:14:37,360
incongruity between us because i'm a

406
00:14:41,430 --> 00:14:38,959
very spiritual person but not a

407
00:14:44,230 --> 00:14:41,440
religious person at all

408
00:14:46,550 --> 00:14:44,240
i'm not down with that but i i think

409
00:14:49,189 --> 00:14:46,560
we're going to have a lot to talk about

410
00:14:52,470 --> 00:14:49,199
again folks the book denying to the

411
00:14:54,470 --> 00:14:52,480
grave why we ignore the facts that will

412
00:14:56,230 --> 00:14:54,480
save us and i think you guys have done a

413
00:14:58,069 --> 00:14:56,240
pretty good job of laying out the basic

414
00:15:01,189 --> 00:14:58,079
premise of the book and the genesis of

415
00:15:04,470 --> 00:15:01,199
it which is interesting i feel like i've

416
00:15:06,230 --> 00:15:04,480
done 500 shows on denying to the grave

417
00:15:08,790 --> 00:15:06,240
you know that's what this show has all

418
00:15:09,750 --> 00:15:08,800
been about but it's the issues are

419
00:15:11,350 --> 00:15:09,760
always

420
00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:11,360
the other way around and that's the

421
00:15:17,110 --> 00:15:13,839
first thing that impressed me is like

422
00:15:20,230 --> 00:15:17,120
isn't this what everybody says hey i

423
00:15:22,470 --> 00:15:20,240
know the facts the other guy why isn't

424
00:15:23,990 --> 00:15:22,480
he relating to the facts in the same way

425
00:15:25,509 --> 00:15:24,000
that i do

426
00:15:28,230 --> 00:15:25,519
you know one of the very first

427
00:15:30,710 --> 00:15:28,240
interviews i did was with a guy i

428
00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:30,720
like and still greatly respect dr rupert

429
00:15:34,629 --> 00:15:32,240
cheldrick who is a

430
00:15:36,710 --> 00:15:34,639
cambridge biologist

431
00:15:39,110 --> 00:15:36,720
published in nature

432
00:15:41,590 --> 00:15:39,120
certainly well-respected guy

433
00:15:43,590 --> 00:15:41,600
and he tells this story about

434
00:15:44,629 --> 00:15:43,600
presenting at the royal society in

435
00:15:47,110 --> 00:15:44,639
london

436
00:15:48,710 --> 00:15:47,120
about his work on morphogenetic fields

437
00:15:51,829 --> 00:15:48,720
which you guys would probably completely

438
00:15:53,509 --> 00:15:51,839
disagree with and one of his colleagues

439
00:15:55,990 --> 00:15:53,519
on the royal society

440
00:15:59,670 --> 00:15:56,000
stands up and turns his back to the

441
00:16:02,790 --> 00:15:59,680
screen folds his arms over his chest and

442
00:16:05,829 --> 00:16:02,800
says regarding rupert's data i wouldn't

443
00:16:06,790 --> 00:16:05,839
believe it even if it was true

444
00:16:09,509 --> 00:16:06,800
so

445
00:16:11,910 --> 00:16:09,519
isn't that what we're really up against

446
00:16:14,550 --> 00:16:11,920
this was not rupert's position is not a

447
00:16:16,629 --> 00:16:14,560
mainstream position but he has a lot of

448
00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:16,639
really good data to support what he's

449
00:16:19,030 --> 00:16:17,600
saying

450
00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:19,040
and we have

451
00:16:23,590 --> 00:16:22,240
a dogmatic scientific

452
00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:23,600
ordained

453
00:16:29,269 --> 00:16:26,880
mainstream that says i wouldn't believe

454
00:16:31,829 --> 00:16:29,279
it even if it wasn't true

455
00:16:33,430 --> 00:16:31,839
isn't that at the core of what we're

456
00:16:35,590 --> 00:16:33,440
talking about and then doesn't it

457
00:16:37,110 --> 00:16:35,600
quickly get to data don't we all think

458
00:16:38,150 --> 00:16:37,120
we have the facts and the other guy

459
00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:38,160
doesn't

460
00:16:41,749 --> 00:16:39,920
yes i think that's true i think that's

461
00:16:43,430 --> 00:16:41,759
true to some extent and i would say you

462
00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:43,440
know part of what we

463
00:16:47,990 --> 00:16:45,040
what we write about in the book is that

464
00:16:51,030 --> 00:16:48,000
no one is immune to these

465
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:51,040
phenomena these psychological phenomena

466
00:16:56,790 --> 00:16:54,240
um in that that make us not believe

467
00:16:58,949 --> 00:16:56,800
things or that make us skew the data or

468
00:17:00,790 --> 00:16:58,959
look at things in the wrong way nobody's

469
00:17:02,389 --> 00:17:00,800
immune to it including scientists

470
00:17:04,390 --> 00:17:02,399
including physicians you know we deal

471
00:17:07,189 --> 00:17:04,400
mostly with health sciences

472
00:17:08,949 --> 00:17:07,199
and it's really important we you know we

473
00:17:10,870 --> 00:17:08,959
have many many patients in the book that

474
00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:10,880
we devote to helping

475
00:17:15,750 --> 00:17:13,120
professionals medical and scientific

476
00:17:19,029 --> 00:17:15,760
professionals examine their own

477
00:17:21,189 --> 00:17:19,039
understanding their own approach to data

478
00:17:23,029 --> 00:17:21,199
and how they're you know how they may be

479
00:17:24,870 --> 00:17:23,039
pushing things away that could be true

480
00:17:27,029 --> 00:17:24,880
because they have conflicts of interest

481
00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:27,039
that may not be financial they may be

482
00:17:32,070 --> 00:17:29,760
reputational or something else um

483
00:17:34,310 --> 00:17:32,080
and so that is really an important part

484
00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:34,320
of what we examine as well

485
00:17:39,430 --> 00:17:37,360
i i didn't i got to say i didn't see it

486
00:17:41,029 --> 00:17:39,440
right from jump i mean

487
00:17:43,590 --> 00:17:41,039
you guys still talk about denying

488
00:17:45,190 --> 00:17:43,600
science it's like this is skeptico 10

489
00:17:47,669 --> 00:17:45,200
years ago

490
00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:47,679
science is a method it's not a position

491
00:17:53,669 --> 00:17:50,480
statement right so your book is filled

492
00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:53,679
with political statements about trump

493
00:17:57,350 --> 00:17:55,840
and this and that and other political

494
00:18:00,230 --> 00:17:57,360
statements about topics that you guys

495
00:18:02,549 --> 00:18:00,240
seem to care about it seems to be very

496
00:18:04,070 --> 00:18:02,559
philosophy of science which is what i

497
00:18:06,470 --> 00:18:04,080
think you're getting at

498
00:18:08,150 --> 00:18:06,480
light it doesn't mention the replication

499
00:18:10,470 --> 00:18:08,160
problem it doesn't mention the

500
00:18:13,270 --> 00:18:10,480
experimenter effect it doesn't mention

501
00:18:15,110 --> 00:18:13,280
the file drawer problem all the issues

502
00:18:17,909 --> 00:18:15,120
that are at the cutting edge of

503
00:18:20,070 --> 00:18:17,919
philosophy of science science methods

504
00:18:22,710 --> 00:18:20,080
getting sorting through where the data

505
00:18:24,950 --> 00:18:22,720
really is how we're being fooled i don't

506
00:18:27,190 --> 00:18:24,960
see any of that i just see

507
00:18:28,950 --> 00:18:27,200
standing on a soapbox talking about

508
00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:28,960
climate change and

509
00:18:34,390 --> 00:18:31,520
covet 19 and vaccine and all the rest of

510
00:18:39,430 --> 00:18:36,549
uh well you're right we don't discuss

511
00:18:42,789 --> 00:18:39,440
those things uh in the book

512
00:18:45,750 --> 00:18:42,799
and that's a good observation

513
00:18:48,150 --> 00:18:45,760
and i think what you're getting at is

514
00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:48,160
all the things that

515
00:18:52,390 --> 00:18:49,840
scientists

516
00:18:54,710 --> 00:18:52,400
need to have a lot more humility about

517
00:18:57,510 --> 00:18:54,720
all the things that plague science and

518
00:18:59,190 --> 00:18:57,520
as you say make science a method

519
00:19:00,710 --> 00:18:59,200
not a

520
00:19:01,590 --> 00:19:00,720
belief system

521
00:19:03,110 --> 00:19:01,600
so

522
00:19:04,950 --> 00:19:03,120
the replication

523
00:19:06,310 --> 00:19:04,960
issue for example is a very good thing

524
00:19:08,470 --> 00:19:06,320
that you brought up

525
00:19:10,710 --> 00:19:08,480
which is particularly problematic in

526
00:19:13,029 --> 00:19:10,720
psychology as you know where so many of

527
00:19:16,070 --> 00:19:13,039
the studies in psychology studies now

528
00:19:18,470 --> 00:19:16,080
shown don't replicate over time

529
00:19:20,950 --> 00:19:18,480
i must say that as a scientist

530
00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:20,960
that's one of the most painful things

531
00:19:25,430 --> 00:19:22,960
to have happen is when a paper you

532
00:19:27,510 --> 00:19:25,440
publish with a finding somebody else

533
00:19:29,110 --> 00:19:27,520
can't replicate it and that's happened

534
00:19:30,950 --> 00:19:29,120
to me um

535
00:19:32,549 --> 00:19:30,960
and that is a very painful thing and

536
00:19:35,110 --> 00:19:32,559
that's part of our process right that's

537
00:19:38,390 --> 00:19:35,120
part of how we eventually come to a

538
00:19:40,310 --> 00:19:38,400
conclusion is by doing studies

539
00:19:42,710 --> 00:19:40,320
seeing if people can replicate it

540
00:19:44,630 --> 00:19:42,720
finding out when we're wrong

541
00:19:45,990 --> 00:19:44,640
hopefully acknowledging when we're wrong

542
00:19:47,110 --> 00:19:46,000
which is one of the things that we think

543
00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:47,120
scientists

544
00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:49,440
don't do often enough i just read a

545
00:19:54,150 --> 00:19:51,600
harrowing story it was a book review

546
00:19:56,470 --> 00:19:54,160
this morning i just read in the journal

547
00:19:58,390 --> 00:19:56,480
science

548
00:20:00,310 --> 00:19:58,400
i haven't read the book so i just read

549
00:20:03,110 --> 00:20:00,320
this book review

550
00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:03,120
but it was the story about

551
00:20:09,190 --> 00:20:07,280
two children in an orphanage in iowa who

552
00:20:11,830 --> 00:20:09,200
had their iq measured

553
00:20:14,630 --> 00:20:11,840
and their iq was measured at something

554
00:20:16,549 --> 00:20:14,640
like 36 and 46.

555
00:20:17,830 --> 00:20:16,559
now you may have heard of this book

556
00:20:20,549 --> 00:20:17,840
and

557
00:20:22,710 --> 00:20:20,559
they were declared feeble-minded at this

558
00:20:26,870 --> 00:20:22,720
iowa orphanage

559
00:20:30,630 --> 00:20:28,710
found a another place for these people

560
00:20:32,870 --> 00:20:30,640
to go a uh

561
00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:32,880
another horrible asylum

562
00:20:38,149 --> 00:20:35,760
but in this horrible asylum

563
00:20:40,950 --> 00:20:38,159
the two young children were actually

564
00:20:42,789 --> 00:20:40,960
doted on and raised by adults who also

565
00:20:44,630 --> 00:20:42,799
had low iqs

566
00:20:46,870 --> 00:20:44,640
and they came back a year later and

567
00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:46,880
measured their iqs and these children's

568
00:20:51,990 --> 00:20:50,400
iqs was 90 and 80 something

569
00:20:53,909 --> 00:20:52,000
and they came back 20 years ago and they

570
00:20:54,789 --> 00:20:53,919
were both married people with children

571
00:20:57,909 --> 00:20:54,799
and

572
00:20:59,590 --> 00:20:57,919
very happy lives what they had shown is

573
00:21:00,710 --> 00:20:59,600
that iq

574
00:21:03,830 --> 00:21:00,720
was

575
00:21:05,510 --> 00:21:03,840
capable of going up if a child got the

576
00:21:07,510 --> 00:21:05,520
proper amount of nurturance and

577
00:21:09,430 --> 00:21:07,520
attention and love

578
00:21:12,310 --> 00:21:09,440
and what the book is about is

579
00:21:14,549 --> 00:21:12,320
how scientists psychologists in the iq

580
00:21:16,390 --> 00:21:14,559
field refuse to believe it

581
00:21:18,870 --> 00:21:16,400
and how mainstream science

582
00:21:20,310 --> 00:21:18,880
fought tooth and nail against this idea

583
00:21:23,270 --> 00:21:20,320
that iq

584
00:21:24,470 --> 00:21:23,280
was susceptible to nurture

585
00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:24,480
because at the time this is back in

586
00:21:28,870 --> 00:21:27,280
1930s it was firmly believed

587
00:21:31,990 --> 00:21:28,880
in science that

588
00:21:34,070 --> 00:21:32,000
world that iq was totally a genetic

589
00:21:36,070 --> 00:21:34,080
function totally uh inborn there was

590
00:21:37,909 --> 00:21:36,080
nothing you could do environmentally

591
00:21:38,950 --> 00:21:37,919
change it

592
00:21:40,710 --> 00:21:38,960
and i i

593
00:21:42,310 --> 00:21:40,720
almost brought tears to my eyes reading

594
00:21:44,310 --> 00:21:42,320
that because i thought

595
00:21:48,029 --> 00:21:44,320
here's an example and there were other

596
00:21:53,590 --> 00:21:52,149
refusing to look at data

597
00:21:55,830 --> 00:21:53,600
cells refusing to look at that i mean

598
00:21:57,990 --> 00:21:55,840
there are these two kids

599
00:21:59,669 --> 00:21:58,000
refusing to believe that these two kids

600
00:22:01,669 --> 00:21:59,679
have been able to

601
00:22:04,310 --> 00:22:01,679
have this much of a change in iq in a

602
00:22:07,510 --> 00:22:05,669
so i think that's one of the things that

603
00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:07,520
you're noting

604
00:22:10,830 --> 00:22:09,120
and we're very sensitive to this and one

605
00:22:14,230 --> 00:22:10,840
of the things that

606
00:22:16,390 --> 00:22:14,240
we certainly say and then we write i

607
00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:16,400
think in in this book

608
00:22:19,830 --> 00:22:17,679
um

609
00:22:21,750 --> 00:22:19,840
for example a lot about the nutritional

610
00:22:24,390 --> 00:22:21,760
science where people have made such huge

611
00:22:27,430 --> 00:22:24,400
mistakes actually and refused to give up

612
00:22:30,789 --> 00:22:27,440
on ideas when new data comes in

613
00:22:32,789 --> 00:22:30,799
that science always has to be ready to

614
00:22:34,870 --> 00:22:32,799
change its mind

615
00:22:36,149 --> 00:22:34,880
when new data come in

616
00:22:39,430 --> 00:22:36,159
sarah did you want to jump in there or

617
00:22:41,590 --> 00:22:39,440
can i move on you can move on well

618
00:22:43,430 --> 00:22:41,600
i guess the thing that i think is bound

619
00:22:44,870 --> 00:22:43,440
up with this thing that we're talking

620
00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:44,880
about right now

621
00:22:47,830 --> 00:22:46,320
as it relates to things that are

622
00:22:48,710 --> 00:22:47,840
happening right now that people care

623
00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:48,720
about

624
00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:51,760
you know covid climate change

625
00:22:57,270 --> 00:22:53,600
global warming stuff that you talk about

626
00:22:59,029 --> 00:22:57,280
in your book aids hiv which is something

627
00:23:00,149 --> 00:22:59,039
else we've kind of looked at on this

628
00:23:01,029 --> 00:23:00,159
show

629
00:23:02,630 --> 00:23:01,039
is

630
00:23:05,350 --> 00:23:02,640
what's commonly referred to as the

631
00:23:07,750 --> 00:23:05,360
cancer culture kind of thing so if you

632
00:23:10,710 --> 00:23:07,760
look at like the vax thing and the

633
00:23:13,590 --> 00:23:10,720
vaxxed movie by dale bigtree there's a

634
00:23:17,190 --> 00:23:13,600
guy who's banned now on

635
00:23:20,149 --> 00:23:17,200
youtube google censored facebook banned

636
00:23:21,270 --> 00:23:20,159
there too what do you guys think about

637
00:23:26,630 --> 00:23:21,280
banning

638
00:23:28,710 --> 00:23:26,640
people who have different views this is

639
00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:28,720
very concerning to me you mentioned you

640
00:23:31,830 --> 00:23:30,080
have these

641
00:23:33,590 --> 00:23:31,840
jack you were interested in

642
00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:33,600
you know

643
00:23:38,789 --> 00:23:36,640
gun ownership and you understand

644
00:23:41,669 --> 00:23:38,799
there's a difference between people's

645
00:23:43,750 --> 00:23:41,679
beliefs and second amendment rights and

646
00:23:45,750 --> 00:23:43,760
how people feel the need to protect it i

647
00:23:47,350 --> 00:23:45,760
think something similar is going on with

648
00:23:49,590 --> 00:23:47,360
first amendment rights

649
00:23:51,430 --> 00:23:49,600
i hear people talk very disturbing to me

650
00:23:53,269 --> 00:23:51,440
when people talk about

651
00:23:54,390 --> 00:23:53,279
science and for information being

652
00:23:59,190 --> 00:23:54,400
dangerous

653
00:24:00,470 --> 00:23:59,200
big tree who i've never interviewed dell

654
00:24:02,950 --> 00:24:00,480
big tree i've interviewed some other

655
00:24:05,350 --> 00:24:02,960
people related to the topic scientists

656
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:05,360
mainly why that

657
00:24:11,350 --> 00:24:09,360
why dell big tree who is a recognized tv

658
00:24:13,590 --> 00:24:11,360
journalist has published on mainstream

659
00:24:15,590 --> 00:24:13,600
things why we would want to ban someone

660
00:24:17,750 --> 00:24:15,600
why we would ever want to limit a

661
00:24:19,830 --> 00:24:17,760
scientific discussion

662
00:24:21,669 --> 00:24:19,840
because we don't agree with somebody i

663
00:24:22,950 --> 00:24:21,679
find that very troubling what do you

664
00:24:25,029 --> 00:24:22,960
guys think

665
00:24:26,909 --> 00:24:25,039
should anti-vaxxers as you guys would

666
00:24:29,750 --> 00:24:26,919
call them should quote-unquote

667
00:24:30,830 --> 00:24:29,760
anti-vaxxers should should they be

668
00:24:32,630 --> 00:24:30,840
banned from

669
00:24:35,590 --> 00:24:32,640
youtube

670
00:24:37,430 --> 00:24:35,600
they are but should they be yeah i i do

671
00:24:39,269 --> 00:24:37,440
think that anybody who spreads

672
00:24:41,909 --> 00:24:39,279
information about

673
00:24:43,909 --> 00:24:41,919
about a medical technology that people

674
00:24:45,669 --> 00:24:43,919
need in order to survive

675
00:24:48,149 --> 00:24:45,679
that's not true

676
00:24:49,830 --> 00:24:48,159
and usually it's intentionally not true

677
00:24:51,990 --> 00:24:49,840
i don't think that they should be

678
00:24:53,510 --> 00:24:52,000
allowed to have any platform they want

679
00:24:55,909 --> 00:24:53,520
personally i know

680
00:24:58,549 --> 00:24:55,919
that's my own

681
00:25:01,510 --> 00:24:58,559
stance i don't think that it has to be

682
00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:01,520
gospel but i think that it does become

683
00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:03,520
dangerous these things spread very

684
00:25:06,390 --> 00:25:04,880
quickly and

685
00:25:07,990 --> 00:25:06,400
people who are just trying to make a

686
00:25:09,430 --> 00:25:08,000
good decision for their children get

687
00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:09,440
pulled in to

688
00:25:14,230 --> 00:25:11,600
ultimately in some cases killing their

689
00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:14,240
own children because of this so i think

690
00:25:18,310 --> 00:25:16,320
it's i do think it's it is potentially

691
00:25:20,950 --> 00:25:18,320
dangerous sarah who would who would

692
00:25:24,149 --> 00:25:20,960
determine what's not true isn't that the

693
00:25:28,470 --> 00:25:26,789
yeah well science has already determined

694
00:25:29,990 --> 00:25:28,480
certain things about vaccines that

695
00:25:31,510 --> 00:25:30,000
they're safe and effective certain

696
00:25:33,430 --> 00:25:31,520
vaccines that they're saying science

697
00:25:36,230 --> 00:25:33,440
really determine anything i think in

698
00:25:37,110 --> 00:25:36,240
your book you say there's nothing is 100

699
00:25:39,110 --> 00:25:37,120
true

700
00:25:41,070 --> 00:25:39,120
isn't science isn't about proof right

701
00:25:43,669 --> 00:25:41,080
it's about evidence it's about

702
00:25:44,950 --> 00:25:43,679
statistically certainty one way or

703
00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:44,960
another right

704
00:25:48,070 --> 00:25:46,640
you know first of all i think we should

705
00:25:49,269 --> 00:25:48,080
just one one thing is we're not really

706
00:25:50,870 --> 00:25:49,279
talking about the first amendment here

707
00:25:54,630 --> 00:25:50,880
because the first amendment only applies

708
00:25:57,430 --> 00:25:54,640
to government censorship so

709
00:25:59,029 --> 00:25:57,440
whether or not we agree youtube facebook

710
00:26:01,110 --> 00:25:59,039
twitter they can do whatever they want

711
00:26:02,390 --> 00:26:01,120
because they're private companies so the

712
00:26:05,029 --> 00:26:02,400
question is is it

713
00:26:06,549 --> 00:26:05,039
morally ethically right for them to

714
00:26:08,950 --> 00:26:06,559
uh do that

715
00:26:10,950 --> 00:26:08,960
to do that

716
00:26:12,230 --> 00:26:10,960
i also want to say that we try

717
00:26:13,990 --> 00:26:12,240
we slip

718
00:26:15,990 --> 00:26:14,000
and we forget but we try never to use

719
00:26:17,830 --> 00:26:16,000
that term anti-vaxxer because we find

720
00:26:19,590 --> 00:26:17,840
that to be a

721
00:26:20,549 --> 00:26:19,600
derogatory term we want to talk to

722
00:26:23,110 --> 00:26:20,559
people

723
00:26:24,870 --> 00:26:23,120
who object to vaccinations and have

724
00:26:26,390 --> 00:26:24,880
conversations with them that's very

725
00:26:29,110 --> 00:26:26,400
important to us

726
00:26:31,029 --> 00:26:29,120
we want to understand exactly what

727
00:26:32,789 --> 00:26:31,039
evidence they have what

728
00:26:36,830 --> 00:26:32,799
is on their mind

729
00:26:41,590 --> 00:26:39,510
what i just wrote actually for our

730
00:26:42,870 --> 00:26:41,600
website it'll appear hopefully in

731
00:26:44,390 --> 00:26:42,880
september

732
00:26:46,630 --> 00:26:44,400
uh an article

733
00:26:49,110 --> 00:26:46,640
a commentary

734
00:26:51,669 --> 00:26:49,120
talking about this very issue about

735
00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:51,679
when is it scientific descent

736
00:26:58,390 --> 00:26:55,360
and when is it misinformation

737
00:27:00,789 --> 00:26:58,400
and one of the things that we've debated

738
00:27:02,950 --> 00:27:00,799
in among ourselves is the drug

739
00:27:05,190 --> 00:27:02,960
hydroxychloroquine

740
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:05,200
which is you know

741
00:27:08,470 --> 00:27:06,720
was originally

742
00:27:09,909 --> 00:27:08,480
said to be an effective treatment by

743
00:27:11,909 --> 00:27:09,919
some people for

744
00:27:13,110 --> 00:27:11,919
covet 19

745
00:27:15,430 --> 00:27:13,120
and now

746
00:27:17,909 --> 00:27:15,440
the scientific consensus is it doesn't

747
00:27:20,549 --> 00:27:19,350
should

748
00:27:23,029 --> 00:27:20,559
people

749
00:27:26,950 --> 00:27:23,039
be able to say

750
00:27:29,350 --> 00:27:26,960
for example on youtube facebook and

751
00:27:31,830 --> 00:27:29,360
similar to twitter

752
00:27:33,190 --> 00:27:31,840
that hydroxychloroquine works for covert

753
00:27:35,590 --> 00:27:33,200
19

754
00:27:38,470 --> 00:27:35,600
if that information might lead people to

755
00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:38,480
take hydroxychloroquine

756
00:27:43,110 --> 00:27:40,240
get bad side effects

757
00:27:45,110 --> 00:27:43,120
and not any benefit

758
00:27:46,149 --> 00:27:45,120
i don't actually answer the question by

759
00:27:49,669 --> 00:27:46,159
the way

760
00:27:52,070 --> 00:27:49,679
because i'm not 100 sure of the answer

761
00:27:53,669 --> 00:27:52,080
um what but you're asking the most

762
00:27:54,789 --> 00:27:53,679
important question which is at what

763
00:27:57,590 --> 00:27:54,799
point

764
00:28:00,549 --> 00:27:57,600
does something become

765
00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:00,559
dangerous and harmful and therefore

766
00:28:10,630 --> 00:28:07,830
and at what point is it a matter of

767
00:28:12,870 --> 00:28:10,640
legitimate scientific discussion

768
00:28:15,510 --> 00:28:12,880
that we don't want to stifle because it

769
00:28:17,110 --> 00:28:15,520
might lead us somewhere

770
00:28:18,549 --> 00:28:17,120
if you have the answer to that i'd love

771
00:28:22,870 --> 00:28:18,559
to hear it

772
00:28:26,149 --> 00:28:22,880
i'll try first off the idea that youtube

773
00:28:29,029 --> 00:28:26,159
facebook and twitter are not part of

774
00:28:31,430 --> 00:28:29,039
what we have all assumed throughout our

775
00:28:34,070 --> 00:28:31,440
lives is this free press

776
00:28:36,870 --> 00:28:34,080
is really not doesn't

777
00:28:39,029 --> 00:28:36,880
can't be sustained in this you know i

778
00:28:41,269 --> 00:28:39,039
ask my daughters who are younger you

779
00:28:43,430 --> 00:28:41,279
know what is the new york times

780
00:28:44,870 --> 00:28:43,440
they barely even know what the new york

781
00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:44,880
times says right

782
00:28:49,750 --> 00:28:47,200
so but you ask them what tick tock and

783
00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:49,760
twitter and sure sure instagram they

784
00:28:55,430 --> 00:28:53,520
know that so clearly google youtube and

785
00:28:58,630 --> 00:28:55,440
these other platforms social media

786
00:29:00,389 --> 00:28:58,640
platforms are a part of what we would

787
00:29:03,350 --> 00:29:00,399
consider the press

788
00:29:06,389 --> 00:29:03,360
and we do as a public have a vested

789
00:29:09,669 --> 00:29:06,399
interest in the extent to which they

790
00:29:11,750 --> 00:29:09,679
censor control and shape information so

791
00:29:13,029 --> 00:29:11,760
i would take issue with you right off

792
00:29:13,990 --> 00:29:13,039
the bat saying there aren't first

793
00:29:16,549 --> 00:29:14,000
amendment

794
00:29:19,430 --> 00:29:16,559
issues i think they certainly are but

795
00:29:20,310 --> 00:29:19,440
what i really object to is sarah i i

796
00:29:22,470 --> 00:29:20,320
just

797
00:29:24,789 --> 00:29:22,480
feel like there's a real disconnect when

798
00:29:27,990 --> 00:29:24,799
people talk about science and then in

799
00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:28,000
the same breath they say but we need to

800
00:29:33,269 --> 00:29:30,320
control what's true and what and what's

801
00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:33,279
not true about science that the whole

802
00:29:38,230 --> 00:29:36,320
endeavor of science is this constant

803
00:29:40,870 --> 00:29:38,240
questioning and challenging and

804
00:29:42,630 --> 00:29:40,880
retrenching of about what we thought was

805
00:29:44,470 --> 00:29:42,640
true it's like the whole thing of

806
00:29:46,389 --> 00:29:44,480
extraordinary claims require

807
00:29:49,830 --> 00:29:46,399
extraordinary proof

808
00:29:52,470 --> 00:29:49,840
no that is completely anti-scientific

809
00:29:55,750 --> 00:29:52,480
the whole idea of science is to be not

810
00:29:58,470 --> 00:29:55,760
biased who would be the meta agency that

811
00:30:00,950 --> 00:29:58,480
would determine what's extraordinary

812
00:30:04,070 --> 00:30:00,960
and what's extraordinary proof who would

813
00:30:08,230 --> 00:30:04,080
be the meta agency that would determine

814
00:30:11,110 --> 00:30:08,240
what's true and not true in order to

815
00:30:12,870 --> 00:30:11,120
allow it to be on youtube and really the

816
00:30:15,430 --> 00:30:12,880
only way i guess and we're going to have

817
00:30:18,470 --> 00:30:15,440
to do it here the only way to get to any

818
00:30:20,950 --> 00:30:18,480
grounding on this is to start diving

819
00:30:23,350 --> 00:30:20,960
into the data which again i i kind of

820
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:23,360
find as a shortcoming of your book

821
00:30:27,269 --> 00:30:25,600
it's not like you guys deconstruct any

822
00:30:30,389 --> 00:30:27,279
of the issues that you seem to care

823
00:30:32,389 --> 00:30:30,399
about so we could go into climate change

824
00:30:34,950 --> 00:30:32,399
or we could go into again

825
00:30:37,350 --> 00:30:34,960
the masks on covid19 would be a perfect

826
00:30:38,950 --> 00:30:37,360
one because we did a show

827
00:30:43,029 --> 00:30:38,960
on skeptico

828
00:30:46,470 --> 00:30:43,039
and i kind of debated a guy's a phd in

829
00:30:48,310 --> 00:30:46,480
biology from mit and he was spreading

830
00:30:51,110 --> 00:30:48,320
misinformation

831
00:30:54,310 --> 00:30:51,120
about masks being effective

832
00:30:57,509 --> 00:30:54,320
and now we even and clearly we know and

833
00:31:00,549 --> 00:30:57,519
we knew all along that masks work in the

834
00:31:02,870 --> 00:31:00,559
laboratory but every randomized

835
00:31:05,190 --> 00:31:02,880
controlled trial that's ever been done

836
00:31:06,230 --> 00:31:05,200
and i can pull up from you for you just

837
00:31:23,029 --> 00:31:06,240
a

838
00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:23,039
do in this study 17

839
00:31:28,950 --> 00:31:25,360
overall the use of masks in community

840
00:31:30,630 --> 00:31:28,960
did not reduce the risk of influenza

841
00:31:33,509 --> 00:31:30,640
over and over again these studies have

842
00:31:36,549 --> 00:31:33,519
been replicated and they always generate

843
00:31:38,070 --> 00:31:36,559
a null result and then finally we had

844
00:31:42,789 --> 00:31:38,080
the

845
00:31:45,750 --> 00:31:42,799
and reveals in an email that he never

846
00:31:47,750 --> 00:31:45,760
made public that he knew all along that

847
00:31:49,669 --> 00:31:47,760
in terms of public health

848
00:31:52,070 --> 00:31:49,679
not in terms of laboratory not whether

849
00:31:54,230 --> 00:31:52,080
you can make a mask work in a laboratory

850
00:31:55,830 --> 00:31:54,240
setting which we all understand you can

851
00:31:57,750 --> 00:31:55,840
but whether from a public health

852
00:31:59,269 --> 00:31:57,760
standpoint they work

853
00:32:01,029 --> 00:31:59,279
he comes out and says yeah i know they

854
00:32:02,710 --> 00:32:01,039
never worked and i certainly know the

855
00:32:05,509 --> 00:32:02,720
ones that most people are buying down at

856
00:32:07,669 --> 00:32:05,519
the drugstore don't work so

857
00:32:09,750 --> 00:32:07,679
hey let's do a little

858
00:32:11,590 --> 00:32:09,760
reversal like you guys are talking about

859
00:32:13,509 --> 00:32:11,600
because your book

860
00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:13,519
talks about mask wearing as it's

861
00:32:17,750 --> 00:32:14,399
absolutely

862
00:32:20,070 --> 00:32:17,760
proven 100 scientifically and now we

863
00:32:22,230 --> 00:32:20,080
have a reversal of that data so are we

864
00:32:24,149 --> 00:32:22,240
going to can you guys demonstrate your

865
00:32:26,710 --> 00:32:24,159
flexibility or are you going to be

866
00:32:27,750 --> 00:32:26,720
denying to the grave that this is not

867
00:32:30,950 --> 00:32:27,760
the truth

868
00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:30,960
well let's take the larger issue though

869
00:32:33,190 --> 00:32:32,080
which

870
00:32:36,389 --> 00:32:33,200
you know

871
00:32:37,830 --> 00:32:36,399
i still think masks work obviously and

872
00:32:39,909 --> 00:32:37,840
probably sarah does too i haven't we

873
00:32:42,710 --> 00:32:39,919
haven't discussed masks in a while

874
00:32:44,070 --> 00:32:42,720
and i don't have the data at the tip of

875
00:32:45,990 --> 00:32:44,080
my fingers the way you just did which

876
00:32:48,630 --> 00:32:46,000
was really great that you had that there

877
00:32:51,509 --> 00:32:48,640
so i'm not gonna be able to engage in a

878
00:32:53,430 --> 00:32:51,519
informed conversation about it

879
00:32:54,310 --> 00:32:53,440
but no one is suppressing either side

880
00:32:57,029 --> 00:32:54,320
right

881
00:32:59,190 --> 00:32:57,039
i got to say in my book masked work you

882
00:33:01,350 --> 00:32:59,200
get to say your maths don't work

883
00:33:03,110 --> 00:33:01,360
public sees both sides oh no that's

884
00:33:04,630 --> 00:33:03,120
suppressed on youtube you can't say that

885
00:33:06,789 --> 00:33:04,640
or you're banned

886
00:33:08,389 --> 00:33:06,799
you can't say masks don't work on

887
00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:08,399
youtube that's that's correct you will

888
00:33:12,789 --> 00:33:10,640
be banned your video will be

889
00:33:14,149 --> 00:33:12,799
demonetized first then you'll get a

890
00:33:16,470 --> 00:33:14,159
strike and then it'll be banned and

891
00:33:18,070 --> 00:33:16,480
there's multiple multiple

892
00:33:18,950 --> 00:33:18,080
people that can attest to that they have

893
00:33:21,350 --> 00:33:18,960
you know

894
00:33:22,950 --> 00:33:21,360
50 videos that are fine and then a video

895
00:33:26,070 --> 00:33:22,960
like that gets banned all the time

896
00:33:29,750 --> 00:33:27,669
i mean some slip through and some are

897
00:33:31,830 --> 00:33:29,760
banned i mean that's that's the worst of

898
00:33:33,830 --> 00:33:31,840
it is that some slip through and some

899
00:33:36,310 --> 00:33:33,840
are banned

900
00:33:38,950 --> 00:33:36,320
i just saw a little snippet of the study

901
00:33:40,950 --> 00:33:38,960
that you pulled up but i did notice that

902
00:33:43,430 --> 00:33:40,960
it said that all included studies in the

903
00:33:45,029 --> 00:33:43,440
systematic review were deemed high risk

904
00:33:47,509 --> 00:33:45,039
of bias

905
00:33:49,669 --> 00:33:47,519
and it also said that it wasn't

906
00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:49,679
obviously about covert 19 was it

907
00:33:53,029 --> 00:33:51,600
specifically

908
00:33:55,590 --> 00:33:53,039
and i guess that's part of my

909
00:33:57,029 --> 00:33:55,600
frustration is like your points right

910
00:33:58,950 --> 00:33:57,039
now

911
00:34:01,909 --> 00:33:58,960
catapult us into a real scientific

912
00:34:03,350 --> 00:34:01,919
discussion which is here's the data as

913
00:34:06,630 --> 00:34:03,360
it existed

914
00:34:09,990 --> 00:34:06,640
pre-covid right because these are it's a

915
00:34:13,990 --> 00:34:10,000
meta-analysis of 17 studies done i think

916
00:34:15,990 --> 00:34:14,000
between 2010 and 2015. so it's

917
00:34:18,790 --> 00:34:16,000
definitely before covid

918
00:34:20,310 --> 00:34:18,800
so do these studies are they relevant to

919
00:34:22,389 --> 00:34:20,320
our current situation that's a real

920
00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:22,399
scientific question and it's interesting

921
00:34:26,790 --> 00:34:24,800
i think most people think that they are

922
00:34:28,710 --> 00:34:26,800
because if you're looking at viral and

923
00:34:30,149 --> 00:34:28,720
throughout infections and flu when we

924
00:34:31,909 --> 00:34:30,159
went through sars we went through all

925
00:34:33,589 --> 00:34:31,919
that probably a good connection there

926
00:34:35,750 --> 00:34:33,599
but then the other thing is

927
00:34:37,430 --> 00:34:35,760
because they found a null result what

928
00:34:39,109 --> 00:34:37,440
are we to make of a null result they

929
00:34:40,790 --> 00:34:39,119
sound you know

930
00:34:43,030 --> 00:34:40,800
what what were the limitations of the

931
00:34:46,149 --> 00:34:43,040
study that caused them to come up with a

932
00:34:49,669 --> 00:34:46,159
null result these are all good

933
00:34:50,550 --> 00:34:49,679
questions to ask but what i hear back

934
00:34:52,790 --> 00:34:50,560
from

935
00:34:55,109 --> 00:34:52,800
people particularly the policy health

936
00:34:57,589 --> 00:34:55,119
makers is and there's an exact quote if

937
00:35:00,069 --> 00:34:57,599
i wanted to bother to dig it up is

938
00:35:02,150 --> 00:35:00,079
quit grumbling about wanting more

939
00:35:05,589 --> 00:35:02,160
scientific studies and just do what

940
00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:05,599
you're told wear the freaking mask well

941
00:35:09,349 --> 00:35:07,680
when fauci comes out in the hidden

942
00:35:11,430 --> 00:35:09,359
emails that he says is i knew that the

943
00:35:13,829 --> 00:35:11,440
mask didn't work all along

944
00:35:16,710 --> 00:35:13,839
that to me is the headline story is

945
00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:16,720
there's a disconnect between

946
00:35:22,310 --> 00:35:19,200
science and public health policy there's

947
00:35:24,710 --> 00:35:22,320
no reason to wear a mask unless you want

948
00:35:27,109 --> 00:35:24,720
to wear a mask there's no evidence that

949
00:35:29,109 --> 00:35:27,119
there's this overwhelming

950
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:29,119
boost that we're gonna get from wearing

951
00:35:33,589 --> 00:35:31,440
a mask and yet that has been the public

952
00:35:36,870 --> 00:35:33,599
health policy so that's

953
00:35:37,750 --> 00:35:36,880
that's my problem with it

954
00:35:39,430 --> 00:35:37,760
i would

955
00:35:42,470 --> 00:35:39,440
obviously disagree

956
00:35:45,349 --> 00:35:42,480
i think the evidence is there

957
00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:45,359
that masks are effective

958
00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:47,280
reducing transmission of aerosolized

959
00:35:50,710 --> 00:35:49,040
viral infections

960
00:35:52,790 --> 00:35:50,720
as i said i'm not going to be able to

961
00:35:54,710 --> 00:35:52,800
pull up the study right now that

962
00:35:57,829 --> 00:35:54,720
supports that so

963
00:36:01,190 --> 00:35:57,839
now i'm firm ground here

964
00:36:02,550 --> 00:36:01,200
one thing i totally agree with you about

965
00:36:03,349 --> 00:36:02,560
is that

966
00:36:04,550 --> 00:36:03,359
the

967
00:36:08,390 --> 00:36:04,560
open

968
00:36:10,870 --> 00:36:08,400
discussion of the data and the evidence

969
00:36:12,870 --> 00:36:10,880
should never be surprised

970
00:36:14,710 --> 00:36:12,880
i talk

971
00:36:18,470 --> 00:36:14,720
i think that reasonable people people

972
00:36:20,310 --> 00:36:18,480
can disagree about the effectiveness yes

973
00:36:22,310 --> 00:36:20,320
look at the data come to different

974
00:36:23,910 --> 00:36:22,320
conclusions

975
00:36:27,190 --> 00:36:23,920
and i think there will be

976
00:36:29,910 --> 00:36:27,200
more studies done fast very or just do

977
00:36:32,470 --> 00:36:29,920
rather wise control trials classes as

978
00:36:33,349 --> 00:36:32,480
you know and that gets this whole area

979
00:36:35,430 --> 00:36:33,359
of

980
00:36:37,589 --> 00:36:35,440
when do we want to trust observations

981
00:36:39,109 --> 00:36:37,599
studies as opposed to randomized

982
00:36:41,829 --> 00:36:39,119
controlled studies

983
00:36:44,710 --> 00:36:41,839
so lots of very interesting scientific

984
00:36:48,710 --> 00:36:46,230
we have

985
00:36:49,990 --> 00:36:48,720
a situation though where

986
00:36:55,589 --> 00:36:50,000
and

987
00:37:24,710 --> 00:36:56,630
a

988
00:37:26,790 --> 00:37:24,720
if i were

989
00:37:28,069 --> 00:37:26,800
looking at all this data

990
00:37:29,910 --> 00:37:28,079
and i was

991
00:37:31,750 --> 00:37:29,920
not exactly sure

992
00:37:34,829 --> 00:37:31,760
i'd wear a mask

993
00:37:38,390 --> 00:37:34,839
because wearing i'm asking my opinion

994
00:37:40,310 --> 00:37:38,400
as almost no downside

995
00:37:41,990 --> 00:37:40,320
and i think there's sufficient data to

996
00:37:44,230 --> 00:37:42,000
say

997
00:37:46,630 --> 00:37:44,240
that it limits the transmission of

998
00:37:48,310 --> 00:37:46,640
aerosolized viral infections

999
00:37:50,950 --> 00:37:48,320
so i would certainly recommend that

1000
00:37:53,829 --> 00:37:50,960
somebody wear advanced

1001
00:37:55,910 --> 00:37:53,839
the next question is should it be mandy

1002
00:37:57,829 --> 00:37:55,920
and i don't the answer

1003
00:38:00,150 --> 00:37:57,839
okay but you're i'm with you jack but

1004
00:38:01,670 --> 00:38:00,160
then you kind of pull up on the really

1005
00:38:04,230 --> 00:38:01,680
important one hey you want to wear a

1006
00:38:06,150 --> 00:38:04,240
mask out there in new york i don't have

1007
00:38:07,589 --> 00:38:06,160
any problem anyone can wear a mask i see

1008
00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:07,599
people all the time driving around in

1009
00:38:11,589 --> 00:38:09,040
their car all by themselves wearing a

1010
00:38:14,150 --> 00:38:11,599
mask you want to do that man it's your

1011
00:38:16,550 --> 00:38:14,160
world and then i got it

1012
00:38:18,950 --> 00:38:16,560
well it doesn't matter the whole issue

1013
00:38:22,710 --> 00:38:18,960
is public health policy what we care

1014
00:38:24,710 --> 00:38:22,720
about is that whether the public health

1015
00:38:28,069 --> 00:38:24,720
policy can be

1016
00:38:30,950 --> 00:38:28,079
made and enforced without science behind

1017
00:38:32,950 --> 00:38:30,960
it so what i think we so you can have

1018
00:38:34,550 --> 00:38:32,960
your opinion you know which you're

1019
00:38:36,069 --> 00:38:34,560
you're open at admitting that you don't

1020
00:38:38,069 --> 00:38:36,079
have the data i at least have a little

1021
00:38:40,310 --> 00:38:38,079
bit of nato and i've done it i have the

1022
00:38:42,550 --> 00:38:40,320
dating with me right now i i i thought

1023
00:38:43,990 --> 00:38:42,560
okay i'm fine you don't have the data at

1024
00:38:46,390 --> 00:38:44,000
your fingertips

1025
00:38:48,470 --> 00:38:46,400
you could edit you know if i had thought

1026
00:38:51,030 --> 00:38:48,480
knew that we would talk about this and i

1027
00:38:52,470 --> 00:38:51,040
had time to accumulate all of it

1028
00:38:55,270 --> 00:38:52,480
because i've been reading these studies

1029
00:38:57,670 --> 00:38:55,280
as well liking that well i can simplify

1030
00:38:59,270 --> 00:38:57,680
it i think i can simplify the argument

1031
00:39:01,190 --> 00:38:59,280
to a point where

1032
00:39:02,950 --> 00:39:01,200
i don't know that we'll find agreement

1033
00:39:04,950 --> 00:39:02,960
but we're already kind of closer to

1034
00:39:05,750 --> 00:39:04,960
agreement than it might seem on this in

1035
00:39:08,310 --> 00:39:05,760
that

1036
00:39:10,150 --> 00:39:08,320
precovid

1037
00:39:11,430 --> 00:39:10,160
our public health

1038
00:39:14,790 --> 00:39:11,440
policy

1039
00:39:16,550 --> 00:39:14,800
interface between mask science was no

1040
00:39:17,430 --> 00:39:16,560
mandates right

1041
00:39:20,950 --> 00:39:17,440
so

1042
00:39:23,030 --> 00:39:20,960
pre-covid we were not mandating that

1043
00:39:25,349 --> 00:39:23,040
people wear masks when there was flu

1044
00:39:26,950 --> 00:39:25,359
outbreak the prior year and all the rest

1045
00:39:30,790 --> 00:39:26,960
of that there was none of that

1046
00:39:33,750 --> 00:39:30,800
so so i would suggest to you that again

1047
00:39:37,829 --> 00:39:33,760
what i think your book should be about

1048
00:39:41,190 --> 00:39:37,839
is what kind of science would we need to

1049
00:39:42,870 --> 00:39:41,200
tip that over not tip that over to uh

1050
00:39:44,150 --> 00:39:42,880
hey i recommend that you really ought to

1051
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:44,160
look into this you ought to do your own

1052
00:39:48,470 --> 00:39:45,760
work and you ought to wear a mask

1053
00:39:50,950 --> 00:39:48,480
what tips it over to no i can now

1054
00:39:52,710 --> 00:39:50,960
mandate that and now to the situation

1055
00:39:55,109 --> 00:39:52,720
where we're in now where we have a

1056
00:39:58,310 --> 00:39:55,119
president's a president who is and this

1057
00:40:00,230 --> 00:39:58,320
is absurdity this is science completely

1058
00:40:02,069 --> 00:40:00,240
run amok in my opinion

1059
00:40:05,270 --> 00:40:02,079
is threatening

1060
00:40:07,589 --> 00:40:05,280
imposing mask restrictions

1061
00:40:10,790 --> 00:40:07,599
for people who do or do not take the

1062
00:40:12,710 --> 00:40:10,800
vaccine so take out whether you are pro

1063
00:40:15,829 --> 00:40:12,720
or against the vaccine

1064
00:40:18,309 --> 00:40:15,839
since when would a a policy that is

1065
00:40:20,630 --> 00:40:18,319
supposed to be driven by science and

1066
00:40:22,870 --> 00:40:20,640
about the welfare the the health and

1067
00:40:24,470 --> 00:40:22,880
welfare of the population when would

1068
00:40:26,150 --> 00:40:24,480
that be used as a threat

1069
00:40:28,069 --> 00:40:26,160
i mean either it's good and you should

1070
00:40:29,670 --> 00:40:28,079
do it or it's not we don't threaten it

1071
00:40:31,190 --> 00:40:29,680
like hey if you do this you won't have

1072
00:40:33,270 --> 00:40:31,200
to wear the mask if you do that we won't

1073
00:40:34,870 --> 00:40:33,280
but that's that's where we're at that is

1074
00:40:36,470 --> 00:40:34,880
science really run amok in my opinion

1075
00:40:38,870 --> 00:40:36,480
what do you guys think i don't want to

1076
00:40:40,950 --> 00:40:38,880
do all talking here sarah i'm wondering

1077
00:40:42,550 --> 00:40:40,960
if maybe this is not a good question to

1078
00:40:43,349 --> 00:40:42,560
ask but i'm wondering if you could tell

1079
00:40:45,030 --> 00:40:43,359
us

1080
00:40:47,030 --> 00:40:45,040
some of your suggestions for how to

1081
00:40:49,510 --> 00:40:47,040
contain the epidemic i'm really curious

1082
00:40:51,349 --> 00:40:49,520
because i hear that you're

1083
00:40:53,750 --> 00:40:51,359
no don't think mass are a good idea i'm

1084
00:40:54,950 --> 00:40:53,760
not sure where you stand on vaccines

1085
00:40:57,510 --> 00:40:54,960
what are some things that you've been

1086
00:41:00,550 --> 00:40:57,520
hearing that you think are are good i'm

1087
00:41:03,430 --> 00:41:00,560
glad you asked that question i resist

1088
00:41:06,069 --> 00:41:03,440
going there i really am about the

1089
00:41:08,630 --> 00:41:06,079
science i really am about the method i

1090
00:41:11,109 --> 00:41:08,640
really am about the way it gets done and

1091
00:41:14,470 --> 00:41:11,119
i'm about a healthy discussion i'm

1092
00:41:16,470 --> 00:41:14,480
constantly like you guys are too i think

1093
00:41:18,710 --> 00:41:16,480
trying to absorb more and more

1094
00:41:20,790 --> 00:41:18,720
information in order to figure out

1095
00:41:23,270 --> 00:41:20,800
what's real what's true what's best for

1096
00:41:25,750 --> 00:41:23,280
my family what's best for me personally

1097
00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:25,760
so that is a that is a moving target but

1098
00:41:30,550 --> 00:41:28,400
it is a moving target we can move along

1099
00:41:32,470 --> 00:41:30,560
and talk about any other topic we can

1100
00:41:34,870 --> 00:41:32,480
talk about climate change or global

1101
00:41:36,950 --> 00:41:34,880
warming same thing we're constantly

1102
00:41:39,030 --> 00:41:36,960
getting new information new data and

1103
00:41:40,069 --> 00:41:39,040
we're trying to make the best decisions

1104
00:41:42,710 --> 00:41:40,079
about

1105
00:41:46,309 --> 00:41:42,720
what we should do this show

1106
00:41:49,510 --> 00:41:46,319
is primarily you know 500 shows 480 of

1107
00:41:52,069 --> 00:41:49,520
them are about consciousness and about

1108
00:41:54,230 --> 00:41:52,079
this kind of what i consider to be an

1109
00:41:56,230 --> 00:41:54,240
absurdity and and jack you said you're a

1110
00:41:59,270 --> 00:41:56,240
religious guy i don't know about you

1111
00:42:00,790 --> 00:41:59,280
sarah but you know science has insisted

1112
00:42:02,390 --> 00:42:00,800
that we are

1113
00:42:04,150 --> 00:42:02,400
the consciousness is essentially an

1114
00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:04,160
illusion where biological robots in a

1115
00:42:08,069 --> 00:42:06,000
meaningless universe this has been

1116
00:42:09,910 --> 00:42:08,079
falsified over and over by science that

1117
00:42:12,309 --> 00:42:09,920
you re there really is something there

1118
00:42:14,790 --> 00:42:12,319
there really is a spirit when you are in

1119
00:42:16,870 --> 00:42:14,800
church or in synagogue that there's

1120
00:42:18,950 --> 00:42:16,880
something there's so there's a realness

1121
00:42:21,270 --> 00:42:18,960
to that behind it that's what this show

1122
00:42:24,309 --> 00:42:21,280
has been about but where that where that

1123
00:42:25,829 --> 00:42:24,319
information took me is to really try and

1124
00:42:31,190 --> 00:42:25,839
understand

1125
00:42:33,349 --> 00:42:31,200
manipulated and jury rigged like you

1126
00:42:35,190 --> 00:42:33,359
guys talk about uh i'll switch gears for

1127
00:42:37,750 --> 00:42:35,200
a minute here you guys talk a lot in the

1128
00:42:40,790 --> 00:42:37,760
book about global warming there's not

1129
00:42:42,630 --> 00:42:40,800
one reference to climate gate

1130
00:42:45,430 --> 00:42:42,640
climate gate is probably the most

1131
00:42:46,950 --> 00:42:45,440
classic example from 2009 remember

1132
00:42:49,430 --> 00:42:46,960
climategate for people who are listening

1133
00:42:50,630 --> 00:42:49,440
who don't remember the what was his

1134
00:42:51,670 --> 00:42:50,640
phrase

1135
00:42:55,750 --> 00:42:51,680
hide the

1136
00:42:57,109 --> 00:42:55,760
so scientists conspiring again you guys

1137
00:42:59,430 --> 00:42:57,119
already believe in conspiracy theories

1138
00:43:01,990 --> 00:42:59,440
here's a clear conspiracy theory we

1139
00:43:04,550 --> 00:43:02,000
caught these guys with their emails

1140
00:43:05,990 --> 00:43:04,560
conspiring with each each other to

1141
00:43:07,990 --> 00:43:06,000
falsify data

1142
00:43:11,190 --> 00:43:08,000
to mislead

1143
00:43:13,589 --> 00:43:11,200
scientific review boards by

1144
00:43:15,109 --> 00:43:13,599
hiding the decline and they even said

1145
00:43:18,390 --> 00:43:15,119
how they would do it how they would

1146
00:43:20,550 --> 00:43:18,400
manipulate the data in order to hide the

1147
00:43:22,710 --> 00:43:20,560
data that was coming in that looked like

1148
00:43:24,870 --> 00:43:22,720
there was increased temperature was

1149
00:43:26,630 --> 00:43:24,880
actually declining

1150
00:43:29,030 --> 00:43:26,640
doesn't that hit both buttons doesn't

1151
00:43:31,510 --> 00:43:29,040
that hit there's a conspiracy theory

1152
00:43:32,950 --> 00:43:31,520
clearly and doesn't that kind of call

1153
00:43:34,470 --> 00:43:32,960
into question

1154
00:43:36,309 --> 00:43:34,480
raise the point of how we have to be

1155
00:43:40,150 --> 00:43:36,319
careful about people who are

1156
00:43:45,990 --> 00:43:41,589
climate gate

1157
00:43:47,990 --> 00:43:46,000
anything to me whatsoever and uh

1158
00:43:49,990 --> 00:43:48,000
the bottom line is

1159
00:43:52,309 --> 00:43:50,000
that uh

1160
00:43:54,790 --> 00:43:52,319
climate changes and real phenomena that

1161
00:43:56,470 --> 00:43:54,800
is the greatest existential crisis that

1162
00:43:58,309 --> 00:43:56,480
we face today

1163
00:44:00,069 --> 00:43:58,319
so that is the

1164
00:44:01,030 --> 00:44:00,079
bottom line there

1165
00:44:03,829 --> 00:44:01,040
um

1166
00:44:05,589 --> 00:44:03,839
i'm not sure what to make of your

1167
00:44:07,109 --> 00:44:05,599
picking and choosing and cherry-picking

1168
00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:07,119
them all these different emails and

1169
00:44:09,910 --> 00:44:08,480
things like that

1170
00:44:11,750 --> 00:44:09,920
because on the one hand you say you want

1171
00:44:13,109 --> 00:44:11,760
to have a scientific discussion on the

1172
00:44:14,790 --> 00:44:13,119
other hand

1173
00:44:17,349 --> 00:44:14,800
you uh

1174
00:44:19,030 --> 00:44:17,359
want to get way away from science and

1175
00:44:21,589 --> 00:44:19,040
evidence and talk about what's in

1176
00:44:24,069 --> 00:44:21,599
people's emails i'm not exactly sure

1177
00:44:26,470 --> 00:44:24,079
how those things uh

1178
00:44:28,309 --> 00:44:26,480
go along each other

1179
00:44:30,790 --> 00:44:28,319
sarah do you have anything to i'm sorry

1180
00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:30,800
go ahead jack no i i i just certainly

1181
00:44:34,230 --> 00:44:32,400
don't want your

1182
00:44:36,230 --> 00:44:34,240
listeners to

1183
00:44:38,069 --> 00:44:36,240
leave by thinking that climate change is

1184
00:44:40,230 --> 00:44:38,079
not real for any people because that was

1185
00:44:41,990 --> 00:44:40,240
terrible

1186
00:44:43,510 --> 00:44:42,000
it's just going to add that um i mean i

1187
00:44:44,710 --> 00:44:43,520
agree with that but also

1188
00:44:46,309 --> 00:44:44,720
slightly different point which is that

1189
00:44:48,069 --> 00:44:46,319
we at no point do we say we don't

1190
00:44:51,829 --> 00:44:48,079
believe in conspiracy

1191
00:44:54,470 --> 00:44:51,839
conspiracies do happen um

1192
00:44:56,230 --> 00:44:54,480
you know watergate definite conspiracy

1193
00:44:57,190 --> 00:44:56,240
many other things like that

1194
00:44:59,030 --> 00:44:57,200
um

1195
00:45:01,349 --> 00:44:59,040
so and and i think that it's hard to

1196
00:45:04,230 --> 00:45:01,359
tell when something's a conspiracy and

1197
00:45:05,990 --> 00:45:04,240
when something's just sort of a mock

1198
00:45:07,270 --> 00:45:06,000
conspiracy that someone's come up with

1199
00:45:09,030 --> 00:45:07,280
so

1200
00:45:10,470 --> 00:45:09,040
you know i don't have an easy answer to

1201
00:45:11,829 --> 00:45:10,480
that but i just wanted to correct that

1202
00:45:13,990 --> 00:45:11,839
it's not true that we don't believe in

1203
00:45:15,990 --> 00:45:14,000
conspiracies

1204
00:45:17,670 --> 00:45:16,000
in science too they happen in science

1205
00:45:19,030 --> 00:45:17,680
everywhere

1206
00:45:20,950 --> 00:45:19,040
okay so

1207
00:45:22,230 --> 00:45:20,960
i i don't know if this feels like it's

1208
00:45:24,550 --> 00:45:22,240
far afield

1209
00:45:27,030 --> 00:45:24,560
or not jack you can be the judge of that

1210
00:45:29,270 --> 00:45:27,040
but again i separate out

1211
00:45:33,349 --> 00:45:29,280
the issue of weather

1212
00:45:36,150 --> 00:45:33,359
man-made global warming is

1213
00:45:39,349 --> 00:45:36,160
substantiated by the data we can almost

1214
00:45:41,430 --> 00:45:39,359
put that aside from the discussion of

1215
00:45:44,950 --> 00:45:41,440
climate gate so i just pulled up on the

1216
00:45:47,670 --> 00:45:44,960
screen the email from phil jones

1217
00:45:49,829 --> 00:45:47,680
that was he didn't reveal it was a

1218
00:45:51,670 --> 00:45:49,839
whistleblower who rev

1219
00:45:54,710 --> 00:45:51,680
leaked his email

1220
00:45:56,390 --> 00:45:54,720
and it says i'll read it i've just

1221
00:45:57,750 --> 00:45:56,400
completed mike

1222
00:45:59,270 --> 00:45:57,760
that is uh

1223
00:46:01,670 --> 00:45:59,280
michael mann

1224
00:46:04,230 --> 00:46:01,680
his nature trick

1225
00:46:07,190 --> 00:46:04,240
of adding the real temps to each series

1226
00:46:10,710 --> 00:46:07,200
for the last 20 years

1227
00:46:13,109 --> 00:46:10,720
to show him how to hide the decline now

1228
00:46:15,990 --> 00:46:13,119
there's no other way to interpret that

1229
00:46:17,190 --> 00:46:16,000
other than scientist conspiring

1230
00:46:19,670 --> 00:46:17,200
colluding

1231
00:46:22,309 --> 00:46:19,680
to hide the decline

1232
00:46:25,190 --> 00:46:22,319
that is the decline in

1233
00:46:27,990 --> 00:46:25,200
temperatures in order to

1234
00:46:29,430 --> 00:46:28,000
scientific peer review

1235
00:46:32,790 --> 00:46:29,440
committee that was looking at their

1236
00:46:34,630 --> 00:46:32,800
paper and to the un climate

1237
00:46:37,670 --> 00:46:34,640
committee i don't know i don't know how

1238
00:46:40,150 --> 00:46:37,680
else to read that other than than that

1239
00:46:42,069 --> 00:46:40,160
oh you know again we can spend a lot of

1240
00:46:43,750 --> 00:46:42,079
time there's a lot many many ways it's

1241
00:46:45,109 --> 00:46:43,760
been this we've gone over a million

1242
00:46:47,270 --> 00:46:45,119
times of lots of different ways to read

1243
00:46:48,550 --> 00:46:47,280
that and that's not one thing then but

1244
00:46:50,950 --> 00:46:48,560
um

1245
00:46:54,829 --> 00:46:53,109
again like the the thing that would

1246
00:46:57,829 --> 00:46:54,839
concern me the

1247
00:47:00,790 --> 00:46:57,839
most at this point

1248
00:47:04,150 --> 00:47:00,800
is for your listeners to get

1249
00:47:05,990 --> 00:47:04,160
mislead into thinking for example that

1250
00:47:08,230 --> 00:47:06,000
vaccines don't work whether climate

1251
00:47:09,190 --> 00:47:08,240
change is real or things like that based

1252
00:47:15,589 --> 00:47:09,200
on

1253
00:47:18,550 --> 00:47:15,599
would be really

1254
00:47:20,069 --> 00:47:18,560
tragic right if if people well you'll

1255
00:47:21,990 --> 00:47:20,079
think it's tragic i think that's what

1256
00:47:23,349 --> 00:47:22,000
your book is all about i don't i don't

1257
00:47:25,910 --> 00:47:23,359
agree with what you're saying so i think

1258
00:47:27,990 --> 00:47:25,920
we would have a vigorous scientific

1259
00:47:30,230 --> 00:47:28,000
debate about all those things so we

1260
00:47:31,750 --> 00:47:30,240
couldn't and that would be great to have

1261
00:47:35,589 --> 00:47:31,760
that i wouldn't

1262
00:47:37,109 --> 00:47:35,599
be the one to debate that um

1263
00:47:39,190 --> 00:47:37,119
with you but

1264
00:47:40,309 --> 00:47:39,200
um i think vigorous scientific debates

1265
00:47:41,589 --> 00:47:40,319
are always

1266
00:47:44,790 --> 00:47:41,599
wonderful

1267
00:47:47,190 --> 00:47:44,800
um a vigorous scientific debate

1268
00:47:48,790 --> 00:47:47,200
that honestly and

1269
00:47:50,150 --> 00:47:48,800
carefully and rigorously look at the

1270
00:47:51,829 --> 00:47:50,160
data

1271
00:47:54,390 --> 00:47:51,839
would conclude that climate change is

1272
00:47:58,630 --> 00:47:56,549
what's jack

1273
00:48:01,109 --> 00:47:58,640
that's kind of dogmatic

1274
00:48:03,270 --> 00:48:01,119
i mean that is your opinion and i

1275
00:48:04,549 --> 00:48:03,280
appreciate that that's your opinion but

1276
00:48:06,710 --> 00:48:04,559
you know i can just

1277
00:48:08,950 --> 00:48:06,720
and you're not gonna you can tell

1278
00:48:10,870 --> 00:48:08,960
and call uncle on this any time or call

1279
00:48:13,030 --> 00:48:10,880
you know when you don't want to

1280
00:48:14,950 --> 00:48:13,040
kind of engage in this but you know here

1281
00:48:17,670 --> 00:48:14,960
is my favorite

1282
00:48:19,630 --> 00:48:17,680
person on the other side if you will

1283
00:48:22,390 --> 00:48:19,640
judith curry

1284
00:48:24,470 --> 00:48:22,400
climatologist from georgia tech head of

1285
00:48:26,630 --> 00:48:24,480
climatology department and not only that

1286
00:48:29,589 --> 00:48:26,640
but somebody who was on the climate

1287
00:48:32,150 --> 00:48:29,599
alarmist side initially and then changed

1288
00:48:36,069 --> 00:48:32,160
her position based on the data

1289
00:48:38,150 --> 00:48:36,079
and here she is kind of preaching to

1290
00:48:39,910 --> 00:48:38,160
a guy in the congressional hearing what

1291
00:48:41,670 --> 00:48:39,920
was the guy's name again

1292
00:48:44,309 --> 00:48:41,680
congressman bayer

1293
00:48:46,069 --> 00:48:44,319
and she points out that that so we could

1294
00:48:47,430 --> 00:48:46,079
get into that debate that's probably out

1295
00:48:50,150 --> 00:48:47,440
of scope of what we're talking about

1296
00:48:51,510 --> 00:48:50,160
here but there's a lot of folks that

1297
00:48:53,990 --> 00:48:51,520
just

1298
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:54,000
wouldn't agree with you and for the

1299
00:48:56,150 --> 00:48:54,960
record

1300
00:48:58,710 --> 00:48:56,160
you know

1301
00:49:01,589 --> 00:48:58,720
your credentials in are

1302
00:49:04,549 --> 00:49:01,599
stellar from psychiatry and you

1303
00:49:07,430 --> 00:49:04,559
fellowships colombia i respect all that

1304
00:49:10,630 --> 00:49:07,440
but if i wanna know climatology i'll go

1305
00:49:11,829 --> 00:49:10,640
to judith curry from georgia tech before

1306
00:49:15,109 --> 00:49:11,839
i go to

1307
00:49:18,230 --> 00:49:15,119
jack from oh wyoming and you should i

1308
00:49:20,390 --> 00:49:18,240
would go to the 97 of climate scientists

1309
00:49:23,750 --> 00:49:20,400
who agree that climate change is a real

1310
00:49:25,349 --> 00:49:23,760
phenomenon and dr curry be

1311
00:49:27,190 --> 00:49:25,359
in a minority

1312
00:49:28,630 --> 00:49:27,200
and we would put though

1313
00:49:31,109 --> 00:49:28,640
we could put

1314
00:49:33,589 --> 00:49:31,119
97 against three and uh let them have

1315
00:49:36,309 --> 00:49:33,599
their debate i'd be delighted to do that

1316
00:49:38,710 --> 00:49:36,319
again jack i think that'd be wonderful

1317
00:49:40,150 --> 00:49:38,720
i don't think you have the data here is

1318
00:49:41,750 --> 00:49:40,160
dr curry's

1319
00:49:42,829 --> 00:49:41,760
post on the

1320
00:49:46,230 --> 00:49:42,839
52

1321
00:49:46,950 --> 00:49:46,240
consensus if you really look at the

1322
00:49:50,230 --> 00:49:46,960
cook

1323
00:49:53,109 --> 00:49:50,240
peer-reviewed paper from which that 97

1324
00:49:56,390 --> 00:49:53,119
percent is derived if you look under the

1325
00:49:57,750 --> 00:49:56,400
hood it's an example again like climate

1326
00:50:00,470 --> 00:49:57,760
gate of just

1327
00:50:02,870 --> 00:50:00,480
scientific scandal what this guy did was

1328
00:50:06,870 --> 00:50:02,880
have a bunch of grad students

1329
00:50:09,349 --> 00:50:06,880
evaluate abstracts from climate papers

1330
00:50:11,270 --> 00:50:09,359
and then make a value judgment on their

1331
00:50:14,150 --> 00:50:11,280
part whether or not they thought they

1332
00:50:16,150 --> 00:50:14,160
agreed or disagreed on some

1333
00:50:18,549 --> 00:50:16,160
thing that he made up that has been one

1334
00:50:20,549 --> 00:50:18,559
of the most thoroughly debunked

1335
00:50:23,589 --> 00:50:20,559
so there's there's some good science if

1336
00:50:26,549 --> 00:50:23,599
you want to advance global warming idea

1337
00:50:29,190 --> 00:50:26,559
but don't go the 97 percent that's been

1338
00:50:31,030 --> 00:50:29,200
completely debunked and here again dr

1339
00:50:32,549 --> 00:50:31,040
curry from georgia tech a real

1340
00:50:35,390 --> 00:50:32,559
climatologist

1341
00:50:37,910 --> 00:50:35,400
shows you the survey of the american

1342
00:50:39,910 --> 00:50:37,920
meteorological society

1343
00:50:42,069 --> 00:50:39,920
who is really the group the kind of

1344
00:50:44,870 --> 00:50:42,079
people that we would want to

1345
00:50:47,750 --> 00:50:44,880
ask the question of whether they think

1346
00:50:48,710 --> 00:50:47,760
man-made global warming is a concern and

1347
00:50:51,829 --> 00:50:48,720
her

1348
00:50:53,510 --> 00:50:51,839
data is 52 so

1349
00:50:56,069 --> 00:50:53,520
again you know

1350
00:50:58,309 --> 00:50:56,079
it takes a lot to hash through all that

1351
00:51:00,790 --> 00:50:58,319
stuff and we can't do it

1352
00:51:02,870 --> 00:51:00,800
right here right now right right right

1353
00:51:04,309 --> 00:51:02,880
right i wish i i wish i could know this

1354
00:51:06,470 --> 00:51:04,319
is what you wanted to do because i would

1355
00:51:08,150 --> 00:51:06,480
have brought more climate scientists

1356
00:51:09,910 --> 00:51:08,160
along with me that i'm sure you've done

1357
00:51:12,230 --> 00:51:09,920
that already i'm sure you've

1358
00:51:15,190 --> 00:51:12,240
i'm sure you've had programs which

1359
00:51:17,430 --> 00:51:15,200
you've had uh people on both sides

1360
00:51:19,990 --> 00:51:17,440
and let them show their data

1361
00:51:21,829 --> 00:51:20,000
it's climate science very very difficult

1362
00:51:23,910 --> 00:51:21,839
you know i i yeah i don't claim to be a

1363
00:51:26,470 --> 00:51:23,920
climate scientist it's very

1364
00:51:29,030 --> 00:51:26,480
the math that those guys use is so

1365
00:51:31,109 --> 00:51:29,040
complicated that uh you really do have

1366
00:51:33,510 --> 00:51:31,119
to rely on experts to uh come to

1367
00:51:35,589 --> 00:51:33,520
conclusions i took that what else you

1368
00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:35,599
got for us today

1369
00:51:39,910 --> 00:51:38,160
well we can uh we can definitely move

1370
00:51:41,910 --> 00:51:39,920
towards wrapping it up i tell you one

1371
00:51:44,390 --> 00:51:41,920
thing i got right from the

1372
00:51:45,990 --> 00:51:44,400
this this thing he wrote on conspiracy

1373
00:51:48,790 --> 00:51:46,000
theory i thought was

1374
00:51:51,750 --> 00:51:48,800
we think it's reasonable to say

1375
00:51:54,069 --> 00:51:51,760
even without any data to support it

1376
00:51:57,349 --> 00:51:54,079
that most people have never been part of

1377
00:51:58,549 --> 00:51:57,359
a conspiracy or even known a person who

1378
00:52:00,549 --> 00:51:58,559
has

1379
00:52:03,270 --> 00:52:00,559
and the thing that struck me is

1380
00:52:04,710 --> 00:52:03,280
man first of all i grew up in chicago

1381
00:52:06,630 --> 00:52:04,720
where right i don't know how it is in

1382
00:52:08,790 --> 00:52:06,640
new york but you don't get anything done

1383
00:52:11,829 --> 00:52:08,800
without paying somebody off influencing

1384
00:52:13,510 --> 00:52:11,839
somebody and everything is african right

1385
00:52:17,270 --> 00:52:13,520
right right right and then i was a

1386
00:52:20,309 --> 00:52:17,280
research associate at university arizona

1387
00:52:22,470 --> 00:52:20,319
for and i left because i thought

1388
00:52:23,589 --> 00:52:22,480
you know the phd process and that whole

1389
00:52:26,150 --> 00:52:23,599
thing was

1390
00:52:27,910 --> 00:52:26,160
very political quote unquote uh which is

1391
00:52:29,990 --> 00:52:27,920
also conspiratorial and then i got into

1392
00:52:33,109 --> 00:52:30,000
business and i had a business and built

1393
00:52:35,670 --> 00:52:33,119
my business up sold it to uh uh a nasdaq

1394
00:52:38,470 --> 00:52:35,680
company everything about that everything

1395
00:52:40,390 --> 00:52:38,480
about business everything about large uh

1396
00:52:42,470 --> 00:52:40,400
financial transactions this hall is a

1397
00:52:45,430 --> 00:52:42,480
conspiracy you're not telling the other

1398
00:52:46,950 --> 00:52:45,440
side this net so i that just struck me

1399
00:52:48,069 --> 00:52:46,960
as just

1400
00:52:49,750 --> 00:52:48,079
kind of

1401
00:52:51,589 --> 00:52:49,760
exactly the opposite of my experience

1402
00:52:53,270 --> 00:52:51,599
but then what you said was

1403
00:52:55,750 --> 00:52:53,280
you said the first one you use is an

1404
00:52:58,470 --> 00:52:55,760
example of a conspiracy and my audience

1405
00:53:01,270 --> 00:52:58,480
will love this a conspiracy was behind

1406
00:53:04,150 --> 00:53:01,280
the assassination of president lincoln

1407
00:53:06,390 --> 00:53:04,160
but not president kennedy and again

1408
00:53:07,270 --> 00:53:06,400
since we'll wrap this up

1409
00:53:09,109 --> 00:53:07,280
but

1410
00:53:12,829 --> 00:53:09,119
you guys need to google

1411
00:53:15,990 --> 00:53:12,839
united states house select committee on

1412
00:53:19,270 --> 00:53:16,000
assassinations and then add conspiracy

1413
00:53:21,829 --> 00:53:19,280
or sound data i mean that is the finding

1414
00:53:24,309 --> 00:53:21,839
of that committee is that it was a

1415
00:53:26,470 --> 00:53:24,319
conspiracy they had all the data and

1416
00:53:28,710 --> 00:53:26,480
there was this dallas cop who had left

1417
00:53:31,030 --> 00:53:28,720
his you know little walkie-talkie thing

1418
00:53:33,109 --> 00:53:31,040
on and he picked up the sound data and

1419
00:53:35,990 --> 00:53:33,119
there were four bullets on on his sound

1420
00:53:38,390 --> 00:53:36,000
data which then throws out the lone nut

1421
00:53:40,870 --> 00:53:38,400
assassin thing and their conclusion was

1422
00:53:43,109 --> 00:53:40,880
that it's probably a conspiracy so

1423
00:53:46,390 --> 00:53:43,119
over and over again in the book

1424
00:53:48,470 --> 00:53:46,400
it's just kind of a manifesto i i don't

1425
00:53:52,470 --> 00:53:48,480
get it

1426
00:53:54,150 --> 00:53:52,480
well let me just say as we uh wrap it up

1427
00:54:07,670 --> 00:53:54,160
i

1428
00:54:09,109 --> 00:54:07,680
uh of your work

1429
00:54:10,630 --> 00:54:09,119
because that's very important to me in

1430
00:54:13,190 --> 00:54:10,640
my own life

1431
00:54:15,190 --> 00:54:13,200
and the way that science spirituality

1432
00:54:16,950 --> 00:54:15,200
intersect

1433
00:54:19,270 --> 00:54:16,960
as you know we have the end of the nih

1434
00:54:20,069 --> 00:54:19,280
now who's an evangelical christian so

1435
00:54:21,990 --> 00:54:20,079
it's

1436
00:54:22,829 --> 00:54:22,000
quite interesting to think about how

1437
00:54:26,390 --> 00:54:22,839
these

1438
00:54:29,109 --> 00:54:26,400
things um intersect with each other

1439
00:54:30,630 --> 00:54:29,119
um so i think it's quite interesting

1440
00:54:32,710 --> 00:54:30,640
despite the fact that we obviously

1441
00:54:34,230 --> 00:54:32,720
disagree about

1442
00:54:35,510 --> 00:54:34,240
many things

1443
00:54:37,109 --> 00:54:35,520
um

1444
00:54:38,470 --> 00:54:37,119
i do think that you're

1445
00:54:39,990 --> 00:54:38,480
uh

1446
00:54:41,910 --> 00:54:40,000
advocacy for

1447
00:54:43,750 --> 00:54:41,920
open scientific debate is really

1448
00:54:45,829 --> 00:54:43,760
directly

1449
00:54:47,670 --> 00:54:45,839
well thank you very much jack sarah do

1450
00:54:49,829 --> 00:54:47,680
you have any other thoughts that you'd

1451
00:54:50,950 --> 00:54:49,839
like to add or anything else you know

1452
00:54:53,829 --> 00:54:50,960
it's it's

1453
00:54:55,750 --> 00:54:53,839
been me kind of going on about the book

1454
00:54:58,630 --> 00:54:55,760
what else do you want to tell people

1455
00:54:59,750 --> 00:54:58,640
that you feel they will find most useful

1456
00:55:02,309 --> 00:54:59,760
in the book

1457
00:55:04,710 --> 00:55:02,319
no i would agree with what jack said and

1458
00:55:06,710 --> 00:55:04,720
i think that hopefully there are tips in

1459
00:55:08,390 --> 00:55:06,720
the book that can help people

1460
00:55:10,710 --> 00:55:08,400
when they're making any kind of health

1461
00:55:11,910 --> 00:55:10,720
decision it doesn't have to be about

1462
00:55:13,670 --> 00:55:11,920
something that's quote unquote

1463
00:55:15,270 --> 00:55:13,680
contentious it could be about anything

1464
00:55:16,710 --> 00:55:15,280
that you have to make a decision about

1465
00:55:18,309 --> 00:55:16,720
related to your health

1466
00:55:20,390 --> 00:55:18,319
hopefully that there are tips in the

1467
00:55:22,069 --> 00:55:20,400
book that and ideas that give you a

1468
00:55:24,309 --> 00:55:22,079
sense of where you might

1469
00:55:25,750 --> 00:55:24,319
um have trouble making that decision

1470
00:55:27,270 --> 00:55:25,760
where you might you know let your

1471
00:55:28,309 --> 00:55:27,280
emotions get the better of you and where

1472
00:55:30,390 --> 00:55:28,319
you can

1473
00:55:32,230 --> 00:55:30,400
seek more information and make sure that

1474
00:55:33,589 --> 00:55:32,240
you're making the decision in a calm way

1475
00:55:36,710 --> 00:55:33,599
so that you're making the best decision

1476
00:55:37,430 --> 00:55:36,720
for yourself and your family um i think

1477
00:55:41,750 --> 00:55:37,440
that

1478
00:55:42,710 --> 00:55:41,760
book and just to become self-aware

1479
00:55:44,309 --> 00:55:42,720
um

1480
00:55:46,390 --> 00:55:44,319
and hopefully that will be helpful to

1481
00:55:50,470 --> 00:55:46,400
people in their in their health in

1482
00:55:54,789 --> 00:55:52,710
awesome well as i said at the beginning

1483
00:55:56,230 --> 00:55:54,799
these kind of discussions are

1484
00:55:57,670 --> 00:55:56,240
sometimes difficult to have and that's

1485
00:56:00,549 --> 00:55:57,680
why they're not

1486
00:56:02,789 --> 00:56:00,559
done more so i'm glad we were able to do

1487
00:56:05,030 --> 00:56:02,799
it and i think we i think we did it

1488
00:56:07,109 --> 00:56:05,040
right with a lot of respect and i wish

1489
00:56:09,270 --> 00:56:07,119
you guys the best and i thank you for

1490
00:56:11,589 --> 00:56:09,280
coming on skeptico

1491
00:56:13,270 --> 00:56:11,599
thank you for having us

1492
00:56:15,109 --> 00:56:13,280
thanks again to sarah and jack gorman

1493
00:56:17,270 --> 00:56:15,119
for coming on skeptico the one question

1494
00:56:19,589 --> 00:56:17,280
i t up from this interview is

1495
00:56:21,990 --> 00:56:19,599
should scientific discussion be banned

1496
00:56:23,990 --> 00:56:22,000
on youtube do they have the right to do

1497
00:56:25,510 --> 00:56:24,000
it because they're a private company

1498
00:56:27,670 --> 00:56:25,520
let me know your thoughts lots more

1499
00:56:28,710 --> 00:56:27,680
skeptical coming up stay with me for all

1500
00:56:30,870 --> 00:56:28,720
of that

1501
00:56:33,050 --> 00:56:30,880
until next time take care

1502
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:33,060
and bye for now